I grew up in the 80's era of wonderful animated movies and trash television animation. I sat in front of the television cheering on He-man and spitting out my fruit loops every time my fave ninja turtle cracked a joke about pizza. I cried when Little Foot's mother died and watched the Brave Little Toaster go cross country to find his owner.
Now I see what my little cousins are obssessed with. 90% of it is anime or psuedo-anime. Now don't get me wrong, I see movies like Akira and Miyazaki films and I think they are wonderful contributions to the medium. However, anime of this quality counts for about .5% of the gamet.
The anime I see on T.V. today (like Yu-gi-oh,Code Lyoko) are the equivelant to the 30 minute commericials I enjoyed 20 years ago. Has the only progression come in the form of an oriental make over?
At a recent animation seminar I attended, a disturbing number of would-be animators sited anime as thier main influence and intention of career. I'm not nay-saying a career choice, but one look through a couple of sketch books and I was not impressed.
My problem with anime is that it has too many rules. An angry character's face is supposed to look like this. A pretty girls eyes looks like that. Far too many kids had a thousand different characters drawn in thier books, all with the exact same stamped-on faces. The only indication of difference were varied hairstyles. The spirit of creativity is dashed the second they follow the rules to make sure it's anime.
I know fads and trends run thier course, but this one has me a bit worried. As I grew up, I was exposed to many different styles, good and bad. My little cousins refuse to accept any other form of animation. I tried to give em a healthy dose of Wallace and Gromit, but they got bored as soon as they figured out that there wasn't going to be any card dueling. Sigh.
Not here...
But not in malaysia, I mean when people grow up, don't they know its abit childish....I used to be a great anime lover and still is liking it.....but its not easy to watch when i normally get criticise from everyone in my house that it is childish.......
But actually who started it?...Who as the 'Father of Anime'
Imagination is much more important then knowledge...
the creator of anime is considered to be osamu tezuka. It is only considered childish outside of japan due to ignorance.
its one of the myriad branches of the animation tree. not killing or saving anything.
Let them watch Berserk, Elfen Lied, Ghost in the Shell(movie or tv series) or even Full Metal Alchemist and see if they think its still childish.
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I like anime. I think I said that in this thread, months ago.
What I DON'T like are cartoons that "try" to be anime. Teen Titans. Avatar. It's not that I don't like the shows, I do. I don't like that they're trying to be anime. It's like K-Fed rapping.
If "Code Lyoko" is not anime then what is it? For me, anime is a style so anyone who mirrors that style is doing anime. That is not saying that they are doing anime well but they are doing it.
gamecon90, I am really old and I was watching "Yu-Gi-Oh". The art style had become stagnant but I found my interest in the storyline was not wavering. They had, or have, an interesting approach to their series. Every epsiode would recap what had happen, what was happening, and what was going to happen. "Yu-Gi-Oh GX" does must of the same thing with its storyline.
As for current anime that is holding my interest, "Naruto" is doing an excellent job. The animation on all of these shows is limited but I saw the most awesome head turn and it was done in slow motion. The arc, shading, timing were so smooth I had to watch that one section a number of times. I wont to be able to do that with anime style or whatever style I end up doing.
Wait until the filler episodes kick in!!
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First of all it's animaited in france, and second it looks nothing like traditional anime.
I'm pretty sure that pokemon started this craze - but that's what it is. Anime is simply in-fashion at the moment. It's a phase that'll pass (hopefully) with time, all it needs is some really 'cool' (because that's what matters :P) animation to break the trend, preferably something that kids can get into, like pokemon with the cards, the games, etc etc which is what got most kids into anime when it first started.
Well, if you want to look back in the North American history of the genre, its leaps back to Macross ( Robotech) in the 80's, Gatcheman ( Battle of the Planets) in the 70's and likely Astro-Boy, Speed Racer, Gigantor in the 60's.
If its a craze, its been going on for a very long time now.....
Now that all said, ( if I haven't comment on this topic before now) is anime killing animation in North America?
I'll say yes.
The stuff about stories and mature themes and the rest is BS to me. Its is true that North American animation predominantly aims itself at children--no argument there. That's beside the point though from where I sit.
As a industry pro, and former teacher of animation/cartooning studies I see the "contamination" that anime has one young aspiring artists.
Less so in the artistic design sense and much moreso in the sense of TIMING and ACTING in animation.
The hallmarks of all this "dismissed" North American animation ( Notably Disney/ Warner Bros.) is a adherence to the idea of comedic ( or just fluid) acting and action, coupled with funny timing. Mostly notably, this is stretch and squash.
Anime, at least most of it, tends to adhere to a largely limited animation method. They take a LOT of short-cuts in dealing with the physical movements of a character and the results tend to be jerk, or excessively quick. Outright held poses are used more than slow-ins and outs.
If kids are glomming onto anime, instead of something like.........Iron Giant or Great Mouse Detective then, IN MY OPINION, they are missing out of a aspect of animation that brings a LOT of personality and charm to a film.
I've watched anime off and one for decades now. I've NEVER warmed to a anime character like I have a Disney or Warner Bro's character. The charm and personality just isn't there. Oh, I've seen Spirited Away, and My Neighbour Totoro and Ghost in the Shell.........they are all cold as films go.
Because of the conventions in the animation itself, and its visual cliches....I find the empathy to be less in anime than in North America animation.
I grew up with all kinds of cartoons, from TV, features, comics and strips, as well as illustration--I don't see that kind of broad-based interest in the "anime" youth today.
My step-son loves anime, has grown up on it and draws it all the time.
In showing him my own drawings from the same age, he always remarks ( ON HIS OWN) how my stuff is "different". Same levels of ability and technical skills, but he sees a difference in what I drew and what he draws.
All his characters are cold and expressionless. They often have the same faces. I was drawing all kinds of expressions.........well, because that is what I was exposed to.
The visual lexicon I had access to, for the culture then and now, had more tools to express emotion.
I don't see those same visual lexicon in anime--rather I see a lot of shortcuts in the more cartoony styles. It amounts to a form that just doesn't communicate as well as it could to me.
Again, anime puts forth a lot more sophisticated ideas as well.......its aimed at a "smarter" bear. But I find myself asking something profound about all that material when I see it: Why animate it? Why animate Area 88? Ghost in the Shell? Akira? The material is so "adult" in scope--so "live-action" that it begs the question of why animate it as a cartoon in the first place?
Oh, I know the answer: the times those works were created didn't have the technical means to effectively make the films in live-action without visual compromise. Fair enough.
But still.........if I want to see a live-action situation, I prefer to see a live action film. This is why stuff like Hentai and Erotica-grotesque just puzzle the begeezus out of my. Cartoon sex and debauchery like that just isn't titillating.
Likewise watching jet fighters streak down a canyon in a cartoon is kinda neat, but in live-action the same visuals would, again IMO, be mind-blowing.
Anime leaves me short-changed in this respect and always has.
In my career, I've tapped into anime and manga many, many times. Artistically, the work is often unparallelled ( again, if cold)--the design sensabilities often being waaaay out there. The stuff does inspire......had always inspired me in terms of a drawing, a look. I don;t see the reverse instrest happening with young people though. I see a almost STRICT adherence to all-anime all the time. Nothing else.
THAT disturbs me because as I mentioned way at the start of this I think its affecting the genre here, and not in a positive way. If youngsters are just plain closed to the domestic stripe of cartoons, illustration and animation, then a strictly anime diet is a bad thing.
That's my POV.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Everybody is entitled to their opinion but I don't see how anime is a threat to western animation. Anime only accounts for a small fraction of cartoons on television and dvd sells are still no where near the numbers of say Pixar and Disney releases. I guess only time will tell if anime is killing this generation's view of animation but I really don't see why thats a bad thing. I think its the content that attracts many people to anime not the amazing animation quality(or many times not so amazing animation), though in some anime it is pretty amazing.
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I'm with Mr Davis on the influence thing. I'm a child of the 80s, meaning I was highly impressionable back then, and I grew up with movies like An American Tail, The Great Mouse Detective, Labyrinth, Willow, the classic Star Wars trilogy, Gremlins, Ghostbusters, you name it. I'm convinced my drawing would look significantly different today if I had been born a decade later.
I knew anime (or rather, animation done at Japanese studios) before it became hip here in Germany sometime in the 90s. Today's anime feels different to me. I remember when they showed "Nirusu no fushigi na tabi" here, which was based on a novel by Swedish nobel prize-winning author Selma Lagerlöf, the award-winning German/Japanese/Dutch co-production "Ahiru no Kuwakku" or "Chisana Vaikingu Vikke", also based on a Scandinavian author's work- and I liked all that. It had atmosphere, it took its time.
OK, it's different today. I don't consider the fact a threat, though, because as I remarked earlier, what children and teenagers today choose as their animated inspiration is none of my concern. I know where I come from, I know what I like.
Despite what you think about anime the tastes of teenagers and young adults are different than they were in previous decades. Maybe they are sick of talking animals, good always triumphing over evil, and stories that try to stuff morality down their throat. Its a reflection of the shift in the culture of youth who prefer mature content in their animation. But as I said before Anime is still a minority as far as animation is concerned in North America but who knows if that will change anytime soon.
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Undisputed.
Aha. But what about shojo manga and anime, the rousing epics about juvenile superhero sword-slingers fighting the forces of darkness, the incessant hymns to love, friendship and teenage romance in magical girl-type anime, stories about cuddly, talking hamsters and their sweet little adventures right under their owners' noses and gradeschoolers siccing their magical battle pets on other gradeschoolers' magical battle pets?
As I see it anime is about as synonymic to "maturity" as American animation is to "childish fluff".
there's a lot of crappy animamtion on tv nowadays, i just think it's weird to only point the finger at anime. what about the kids that are only into family guy and the simpsons style of animation? they might be done on 2's, but for the most part, all the shots are just a 3/4 view, layered still with a flapping mouth and limited movements. and dare i mention the dreaded aqua teen hunger force.
i see more aqua teen/family guy inspired animations on the web than animericanime, and that's what worries me.
but back to the subject of kids drawing anime style; everybody goes through phases when they're young. but eventually, the will to improve takes over and you move on to something else.
i just think the problem for some people is not knowing when to move on. but because the only things that are availible on tv right now are crappy anime, and adult swim cartoons, kids don't really have access to the good stuff.
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Animation and Design
That's just nonsense. The "good stuff" is all around and more easily available than at any time in history.
You point about moving on is well-taken. When I was a kid I did knockoffs of "Peanuts" characters, but ultimately moved on to other styles and influences.
This is a fantastic thread. Early on someone posted about how He-man, which is a show I watched as a kid and collected the toys. As I grew older and He-man faded away into 80's nostalgia, I felt that the animation seemed heavily rotoscoped. It seemed obvious that they hired bodybuilders to get infront of a camera and run around. Nothing wrong with this of course, and we could debate animation vs motion capture till the cows come home. Everything has its application.
I feel similar to the original poster and several others here, in some regards. I am not a big fan of anime but I enjoy the major works. I actually started showing some interest in quality anime later in my life, and I appreciate that I can look at it objectively without being clouded by nostalgia and style indocrination. You must remember also that it is a cultural thing. It should be remembered when considering the topic of this thread that different styles are stewed by complicated national/cultural experiences.
To a certain degree there is a hive mentality affecting our respective developments. I think the birth of the internet is doing a lot to break this down, but it would be a boring world if we all made the same stuff time after time.
Has everyone seen "Mind Game"?
keep in mind i said "ON TV"
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Animation and Design
Yeah, you did - but that assumes that the majority of kids watching cartoons have no access to DVD, iPods, the Internet, YouTube, etc. Again, that's just nonsense.
Adult swim has actually shown some really good anime. Stand Alone Complex, Full Metal Alchemist, Evangelion, and Eureka Seven are some of the best anime out there. I find myself cringing when I see the stuff they show on Sunday nights.
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Well, if you want to talk anime here, you have to see the whole picture, not just the highbrow stuff. It would be hardly fair to parade "mature" content anime and pretend all anime that's too close to "American fluff" shouldn't play a part in the comparison. Also, I don't see how hentai adds positively to the subject of maturity in anime. There's nothing mature about sexual perversion in my book as I don't define "maturity" as "filled with scandalous or potentially offensiev content".
But you did not once mention one mature anime your last thread or the fact thats the stuff most of these teenagers and adults are watching.
I just stating that is exists along with all other genres of anime. Whether you look at it positively or negatively there is still denying its made strictly for adult audiences. Besides I just said anime exists for everybody from little children to adults and perverts which is think what hentai actually stands for in Japanese slang.
But isn't that what nearly all adult themed cartoons from the states thrive on for ratings. Family Guy, American Dad, South Park, Drawn Together, and Robot Chicken are all adult cartoons but just offer potty humor and perverse sexual content.
Look most of the teenagers and adults who watch anime aren't watching Pokemon or most of the other lowbrow anime you mentioned earlier. They are watching Full Metal Alchemist, Evangelion, Stand Alone Complex, Cowboy Bebop, GTO, and countless others because they know most networks heavily edit
You'd be surprise how much "kiddie" anime shown in the states are often edited(some more than others) from the original version. Most of these kid anime you mentioned in a previous post still portray some mature aspects not found in American children cartoons. Many these shows still portray a realistic view of life and death and the evil that exists in the world. Sailormoon when it made it to the states had edits because certain parts of the show were deemed inappropriate for kids. Also the last season of Sailormoon will never make it to the states because many, even the Japanese animation company that made it, thought it would be too mature for the North American market and that it would destroy Sailormoon kid friendly image here as well. Even Digimon was edited when it came to the states because fox did not like the dark and often mature content and subjects that came up. They also did not like the fact that they said the word "b-----d" quite often. I could go on for hours what they did to Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball z but I'd rather not. One of the most popular kid shows in Japan right now is Crime Detective Conan and even Fox would not dare it on television because it shows gruesome murders in almost every episode and parents and kids sit down and watch it together. If you actually look at some of the kids anime unaltered you'd be surprised just are how vastly our view of children animation differs from the Japanese.
Sorry I ranted so long!:D
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OK then, mature anime - Cowboy Bebop. The catch here is that I don't see why they animate it. They could have just as well made it into a live-action sci-fi show.
The fact alone that adults watch those doesn't make them mature. I don't like South Park and Drawn Together much but Family Guy and American Dad offer some social commentary, however heavy-handed at times. (Whether it's all ripped off the Simpsons or not - eeeh, that's a discussion I'm not interested in enough to join.)
As for manga and anime, Akira Toriyama's work has fecal humour aplenty, for example. What he does is make it look cute by drawing smiling faces on violet turds. There are other distinctly Japanese visual metaphors, like nosebleeds acting as symbolic erections. Anime is not above bodily humour.
No, I wouldn't be surprised, I know how much it gets edited. Anime is not some sort of pariah I won't touch. I watch some of it and I do my research because I find it interesting as a phenomenon. Besides, sometimes even Japanese networks will call for altered plot elements in anime.
My favourite example is One Piece; the manga version of which I collect, by the way. In one of the earlier manga chapters of One Piece, a character saves a child from starving by chopping off his own leg and eating it instead of his rations which he gives to the child. In the anime the same character sacrifices his leg to save the child from an accident. It's a sacrifice, too, but it significantly changes the message of the plot to my mind. In the manga the deed shows how much starvation threatens the two and how great the sacrifice is whereas in the anime it's a more or less "generic" heroic deed.
Why did they alter it? Japanese networks knew One Piece would be watched by a lot of young children inside and outside of Japan and took preemptive measures.
Again, assuming that whoever speaks unfavourably of manga and anime doesn't really know the deeper layers of the matter is a misconception. Not that I'm offended by your notion, but I simply don't see anime as that avant garde form of entertainment brought to us from the mysterious east and which is open only to some select few who have created their own sub-culture around it.
In Japan they used to call all forms of animation anime.
Why animate family guy or american dad? Some thing are just better animated than live action. Besides animation you have more control over because the only limit is your drawing skills and your imagination. Live action your limit is really technology and doing live action with special effects can hard and tedious not to mention expensive.
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... and the budget, and the schedule, and your team, and network censors, and technology ...
I think the terms "live action" and "animation" are rather interchangable in the above quote.
I am talking about actually replicating the kind of scenes in Cowboy Bebop into live action. It would require numerous visual effects shots that would undoubtedly cost more than just doing the same thing on the medium of animation. The scenes in particular that would be incredibly expensive to do via live action and visual effects would be the high pace spacecraft fight scenes found in numerous episodes. Some anime do translate well into live action , like Great Teacher Onizuka, but it is usually the ones that don't require alot of special effects to try and replicate the anime version. Shows like Cowboy Bebop, Gundam, Full Metal Alchemist, and Evangelion(which was already under budget to begin with) would cost too much to do live action for a television series.
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That's why we have "cosplay." :D So we can enjoy our animated people in real life.
It's that kind of corporate thinking that's the problem. Many, if not all, executives see animation as simply a cheap alternative to live action. That's one of the big reasons animation is in the rut it's in today and has been for a few decades already.
What people need to relearn and understand is that animation should do things that NO OTHER MEDIUM CAN DO. That is where the art of the artform lies. Talking animals, squash & stretch, and abstract UPA designs are some of the aspects that reflect this wonderfully but it's certainly not limited to those.
Anyone working in animation today must explore the properties of the animation medium they are working in (traditional 2D, stop motion, CGI, etc.) and discover more unique values of it rather than simply trying to mimic live action which soooooooooo many production do as though relying on a crutch.
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I should also state that they would not have the same feel live action as it did animated. But you have look at it this way. Most Japanese animation companies would not spend tens of millions of dollars on a 26 episode televison series. I would simply be too risky. I think this is the reason Japanse rather do animation than live action because its cheaper to make and it allows you do things you simply could not do (or be too expensive) with the medium of video camera, a green screen, and some expensive vfx software.
The Japanese see animation as an artform than can cater to everybody and not just young children which is why shows like Berserk, Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion, and many others exist so that teenagers and adults can enjoy them.
Well I'm out until Saturday. Everybody have a wonderful Thanksgiving. CHOW!!
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This argument holds less and less water all the time. Shows like Battlestar Galactica manage to do significant amounts of FX work on limited budgets with excellent results. One can go even further back into recent TV history and find numerous other examples: the Star Trek franchise, Firefly, etc.
If you want to make the cultural argument for why Japanese shows are done using anime rather than live action and FX, fine - that's legitimate. But the prohibitive cost argument is less valid with every passing day.
The most expensive animation feature film ever made in Japan was Katsuhiro Otomo's Steamboy and it only costs $22 million US dollars and used alot of 3D animation VFX software combined with 2D animation. You telling me it would have cheaper if they had used live actors with special effects on the same budget it would have looked just as good.
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What I said was VFX are becoming less and less expensive all the time, and cited examples where excellent effects works was done on TV budgets. I made no specific references to any anime film.
TV budgets are a pittance compared to ANY film budget, including the one you cite. In the case of Galactica, the length of two episodes would be roughly equivalent to a feature film. I sincerely doubt that the producers of a basic cable TV series have $11 million per episode to work with (your $22 million figure divided by the two episode length). Yet they do it, with actors, sets, effects (practical and CG), and it looks good.
Whether it'd look "just as good" is a straw man, since we'd be comparing live action to animation, so there's no point in discussing that.
I was basically trying to say that it would have been impossible to do the movie Steamboy in live-action on a 22 million budget. This was aimed at your previous post.
Where did I compare Battlestar Galatica, a live action scifi tv show, to Steamboy, a full length animated movie anywhere in my post.
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Nowhere, but nowhere in any of my posts did I say that Steamboy would have been cheaper or looked "just as good" in live action. But that didn't stop you from adding this to the conversation:
If you intend to use the "where did I say..." rebuttal, it's kind of incumbent upon you to not be the first to put words in someone's else mouth (or keyboard, as the case may be). I used an example to illustrate my point, just as you did. What I didn't do was imply that you'd said anything you hadn't said.
I'm not going to rehash my point, because it's all there for anyone who cares to read it.
First of all, I see special FX in general as a field of animation. There is a lot of miniature work and pyrotechnics involved in many productions, but it's all but impossible not to involve computer-generated elements and computer-assisted scene composition and lighting from a certain scale on. Many anime shows reach that scale.
Another aspect is that animation is not an effortless flight of fancy from a production standpoint, even if it often gives that impression (and is most successful when giving that impression). When done right it requires a great amount of human resources, people skilled and talented, big budgets to cover for the hardware and material needed and the time invested by the people involved. All that sums up to - a LOT.
Anime has found its own ways around the production cost dilemma by using techniques like static scenes involving a lot of held cels, loops and animation on 3's. It also established characteristic physics that don't require much anticipation or squash and stretch. Additionally, a lot of symbolism is used to explain complicated actions, like white flashes carving through a black screen to signify swordfights. In short, the frame count gets limited to concentrate more on realistic detail than on fluency.
With the technology available today, using FX for TV shows on a level close to an average movie production's is feasible and affordable. Many anime shows are based on already successful manga. I don't think it would be impossible to finance a live-action show based on a manga franchise which is already going strong on its own.
There are mature shojo anime out there like X and Angel Sanctuary.
There is plenty of children anime out there but these are the shows that end up on Saturday morning cartoon lineups and most of time censored. Anybody ever watch the "Made in Japan" crap they had on fox, yeah didn't think so. The teenager and young adult anime fans tend to stay clear of these kind of shows.
Yeah if you watch the stuff you just described what else would you think. There is alot of mature anime out there to watch.
Anime as something for everyone, kids, teenagers, adults, and perverts(hentai).
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The bizarre thing is that
Do you feel the same way about Ford cars? Hewlett-Packard computers? Taco Bell survey? All of these (and hundreds more) are companies named after people who are either dead or no longer at the helm, yet these companies create new products all the time. Seems a silly thing to be creeped out over.;)
If I recall correctly, your assessment of the Ripping Friends was that it "kicks all kinds of righteous ass." An opinion. I said it was "awful." An opinion. No one ever said "that show's awful, and you're an idiot for liking it, you fanboy you." You're free to like whatever you will and express your opinion about it - just as everyone else is. Your attempt to turn my comment on the show into a personal attack on you is dishonest, and it's sad that you feel the need to twist it in that way.
Except for the inclusion of the above paragraph, I'm assuming...?
C'mon; that's not fair
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